If time requirements are not the same across organizations then we should not use them in the belt system here. We need to cater to as wide a range of variations of the style as possible :)

They should be removed. The IKCA uses a 3 year timer on ranks as a base measurement but there are allowances for rank recognition and other reasons as defined by the IKCA Senior Grand Master.

Thanks. I made a decision to remove them for all belts. If anyone promotions looks suspiciously short, then the community have the option to point that out, now that the system won't do any checks.

About time and Rank :) Here is some Food For Thought :)

The Comparison of Rank And Knowledge Article By: Senior Master Richard "Huk" Planas

The relationship between rank and knowledge varies from one martial art system to another. Many times, especially in Kenpo, it varies from lineage to lineage; sometimes from school to school. As I travel around the world I see people being promoted all the time to all sorts of ranks. I feel people need to know what the main requirements are for being promoted; time, age, and most importantly knowledge.

In many cases people are being promoted without meeting the minimum time requirements for the rank. In Kenpo, the minimum time between First Degree Black Belt to Second Degree Black Belt is two years. Then there should be three years between each rank from Second Degree to Fifth Degree. Finally, five years between each rank from Fifth Degree and up. Again these are minimum time requirements, not maximum! You are eligible after you have met the minimum time. It's like when you get hired for a job and they say in six months you're eligible for a raise. This doesn't mean you will get the raise. You have to do a good job otherwise there's no raise.

In addition to the time requirements there are age requirements to be considered for promotion. Thirty years ago a Black Belt meant a lot more than it does today. Now every ten year old is a Black Belt of various degrees. Originally it was established that a student must be sixteen years old to wear a Black Belt which at that point would be considered a Junior Black Belt. They would not be a Full Black Belt until the age of eighteen. As for the higher ranks, the age requirements were tied into the time requirements. It was said, "The gi just doesn't get old, you do along with it." Another consideration is the titles for each rank especially at the higher levels. At Fifth Degree the title begins to include the word Professor. That would suggest the individual bearing that rank would reflect the appropriate age. You rarely hear of a twenty something year old Professor!

In addition, you do not hear of a Grammar School Professor. This leads us to the most important requirement for being promoted; knowledge. Professors are found at the highest levels of education and once again the title would infer an appropriate level of knowledge. I see that there is a lack of knowledge in Kenpo. People need to learn the rules and principles. The main problem is they are not aware of what they don't know. They never completed their schooling. It's like a doctor can't drop out of medical school and call themselves a doctor. They need to complete the entire schooling to get the degree. However it's important to note that the person with the lowest grade to graduate from medical school is still called a doctor.

With all of that said, it really comes down to there simply being two kinds of Black Belts; good ones and bad ones. Which one do you want to be?

Each degree is not only a sign of skill, but also of dedication. One doesn't show dedication by training a lot for a short period of time, but rather by staying in training and contributing to the art for a long period of time.

To me the requirements for promotion are:
Know your material. Easy to measure. Some say it's not the most imprtant, but I say it's the least you can do.
Improvement of skill since last promotion. Not so easy to measure, although an instructor should be able te determine.
Time in training. Might be different for each organisation (unfortunately), but dedication is shown by staying, so IMHO there should always be some time requirement, even if it's not specific.
Contribution to the art. Hard to measure. I think that especially for the higher ranks, it's not enough to just train for yourself, but at least teach others to further the art.

I addition to that I think that some compensation is possible, so if there's a lack in one field that can be compensated by extra's in another field. But there always needs to be some achievement in each field to be eligable for promotion.

So to get back to the subject of this post: Yes there needs to be some time requirements, although unfortunately they may vary. I say unfortunately because it would be better for all of us if it were the same in every organisation. That way the degree would say at least something about the amount of time someone has spent on the mat. Not everything, I know that. Some will spend those five years training 10 hours a week, others will only do 1 hour or less. But everybody will have trained more in five years then they would have in one.

(Edit: Notice I'm not saying every organization should adopt our time requirement, just that it would be nice if we all had the same.)

Just my two cents. Would love to read more elaborations on why there should or shouldn't be a time requirement (in Kenpo life, not in this site ;-) )

By and large every org sets their own standards for rank, as it should be. When I review other branches of the Kenpo tree I do not know what their org sets as standards.
Even within those claiming to teach the canon Ed Parker syllabus we must ask multiple questions: which syllabus? (Parker had at least 4 published versions, arguably up to 8 or 9 depending on who you ask.)
Do I KNOW the syllabus that this person claims? Is it an offshoot of something else? Is it a combination lineage?
All I can really do without seeing them in action is look at the diploma signatures. Look at who is in that lineage. Are those people reputable or do I know of these people to be untrustworthy rank sellers? If I like what I see - we’re all Kenpo cousins. I don’t have to investigate too far to know where the material in the Mills lineage, Planas lineage, Chapel lineage, etc comes from. I have a fairly well educated understanding of the principles and concepts contained within those lineages as their people move with a signature style. Then there are others who I have not heard of at all and I have to go digging.
I’ve literally sat as a guest on a board and watched 10 people do Lone Kimono and saw 10 different techs being done. Not like everyone put their spin on LK...but ten totally different movement patterns.

One of the reasons I joined this site is because it is independent and not tied to the whims of any particular association. So we can have discussions like this and nobody gets butt hurt, as well as everyone participating are actual verified people.

Thanks for stimulating my brain dump. :)

Yes and we'll do our best to adjust the system to be flexible enough to accommodate everyone regardless of what variation of style or organization they're part of. We'll make it work and everyone are welcome here :)

Agreed they differ and vary based on organization. Some standards are 3 years for every black belt rank up to 4th degree and 5 years per black belt rank after 5th citing contributions to the art to designate any rank above 5th. I did hear of one association that was 1 year minus the degree you were testing for. For example: If you were testing for 6th degree you would have to wait 5 years from the date of last promotion. etc.

Tom Bleecker said at a seminar that Mr. Parker had it setup in the IKKA that anything after 5th degree was about contributions to the system. Obviously by that time and rank your physical and mental prowess as a kenpoist should be excellent.

What counts as a contribution is really up to your instructor.

If we are claiming rank in American Kenpo, then we should follow S.G.M. Ed Parker's requirements, which have a specific time frame. Now, obliviously, like stated above, each organization is different. So who is to say who is right? My philosophy on rank is simple: "your rank doesn't effect my training". I train for me. My rank is determined by my instructor who I have given the authority to judge me with rank. Outside myself, rank means nothing (from my perspective). I've met many 10th who know the system far less than some 2nd degrees I know. So train hard, and don't stress what other people are wearing. You either know your stuff, or you don't. Just my thoughts!

Unfortunately, I think this is a big problem in Kenpo, that other arts like BJJ avoid. There are minimum time requirements for a reason. The biggest being quality control and developing in the art. This takes time. In Kenpo rank has meaning and we even give titles: Instructor, Professor, Master. An instructor has the time and knowledge in the art to teach and promote students, a head instructor has the time and knowledge to make a black belt, a professor is a teacher of black belts, and so on. You will not find a professor at a university that skipped undergrad or grad school. No matter how talented or intelligent they are, they had to do the work and the work takes time. And if you have a degree in kinesiology it does not make you qualified to teach English literature. You don't just learn the material, you spend time with it and your experience (over time) helps inform your level of competency with the material. For example my understanding and knowledge of short one has evolved over time. I understand short one much better after teaching it for 10 years to hundreds of students, of all ages, sizes and abilities, and that informs my understanding of long one, etc. and my overall competency as an instructor. When I opened my school I did not have enough experience to teach the more complicated material competently, that comes with TIME and EXPERIENCE, which is why my rank has changed over time as I have become more competent with the material. This is not to say you can't fight well, defend yourself or win trophies after a relatively short period of time or that some people aren't naturally talented, these qualities are good, but in and of themselves do not justify rank in Kenpo. Finally, if we all have wildly different interpretations of what rank means, and no standards, rank means nothing. Which is where we find ourselves.

I agree. Time and experience are very important. I held my 6th degree for over 8 years. Never expected a promotion and am very happy with my journey and my instructor. Your knowledge and skillset are what is most important and people do train for different reasons. I love the art, I love my journey and will continue down my path learning as much as possible until my last day.

My instructor has us do the amount of years that match the next black we are trying to get. We have to be active for 2 years to go from black to black 2. He also makes us create new Katas and techniques at each level. Then 3 more years to get 3rd, 4 more to get 4th, 5 to get 5th degree and the pattern keeps going on.
Steve said he saw 10 or 11 different versions of lone kimono from the 10 or 11 students. My instructor will make us learn it exactly has Mr. Parker taught it. Then we also have to learn and modifications he made and then we also have to learn versions from 2 or 3 other instructions that he thinks have some good modifications on it. We are always learning and trying to find the best way to do it but at the same time we always remember where it started from.
As stated by another person, Mr. Parked had taught multiple curriculums over the years to different groups. I think that is part of why we have a few different versions and then most instructors make a few adjustments here and there. I don't see learning more as being a problem as long as we all know the Parker version too.